Comments on: Baa baa black sheep http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html Adventures in travel and serial expattery at zurika.com. These are the tales of two Americans currently based in Munich, Germany. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 01:30:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Andi http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2623 Andi Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:44:17 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2623 In my opinion the most important Members of SVP aren't racists at all. All they do is collecting votes of racists with this campaign. It's been made very well, because the 'normal' voters of SVP wouldn't take this as racism, while the racists would. So both groups vote for them. But SVP doesn't care at all who their voters are.<br />In SVP itself it's all about power and money. While the other Swiss parties had about 1-2 Million Swiss Francs for their campaign, the SVP spent 15 Million. Where does that money come from?<br />It's simple: From the richest of the rich in Switzerland... ...So it's quite obvious that SVP will try to reduce taxes, especially for rich people, while reducing costs for social welfare. To reach this goals one needs more than the votes of those super-rich ones, ergo they try to get votes from everyone, who doesn't know and think much about politics or simply are thumb (i.e. racists).<br />So it even is in the interest of the SVP not to solve any problems with (criminal or not) foreigners, otherwise they would have no more votes at all, and the riches would have to pay more taxes! What a shame.<br />There's one last thing I wan't to say: while SVP has got about 25% voters, there are about 48% (poll of 20min.ch) who are clearly against them. I think most of them even hate those guys (and yes, those few SVP women too). So the Swiss are <b>not racists</b>, not even all of those 25% SVP-voters. In my opinion the most important Members of SVP aren’t racists at all. All they do is collecting votes of racists with this campaign. It’s been made very well, because the ‘normal’ voters of SVP wouldn’t take this as racism, while the racists would. So both groups vote for them. But SVP doesn’t care at all who their voters are.
In SVP itself it’s all about power and money. While the other Swiss parties had about 1-2 Million Swiss Francs for their campaign, the SVP spent 15 Million. Where does that money come from?
It’s simple: From the richest of the rich in Switzerland… …So it’s quite obvious that SVP will try to reduce taxes, especially for rich people, while reducing costs for social welfare. To reach this goals one needs more than the votes of those super-rich ones, ergo they try to get votes from everyone, who doesn’t know and think much about politics or simply are thumb (i.e. racists).
So it even is in the interest of the SVP not to solve any problems with (criminal or not) foreigners, otherwise they would have no more votes at all, and the riches would have to pay more taxes! What a shame.
There’s one last thing I wan’t to say: while SVP has got about 25% voters, there are about 48% (poll of 20min.ch) who are clearly against them. I think most of them even hate those guys (and yes, those few SVP women too). So the Swiss are not racists, not even all of those 25% SVP-voters.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2624 Bryan Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:02:51 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2624 Why the surprise? Don’t want to sound too negative here but this poster reflects (dare I say) most of Swiss people's opinions to foreigners and not just the SVP party’s. Of course you won’t find any of them in Zürich and nobody in Switzerland will walk up to me (I'm black & live in Zürich) and say these things to my face. But if you drive out of Zürich into villages and smaller towns, you will notice that racism and the deterioration of good Swiss values due to foreigners is part of everyday conversation. Just like it’s acceptable to have skinheads around at local events…<br /><br />What really gets under my skin is not the racism, but that the Swiss people have not been informed well enough of an alternative solution to solve integration problems other than the SVP's infamous strategies. It is believed to deliver results. We all know, the more influence the right-wing parties have, the more it damages the international relation growth in cities like Zürich and Geneva.<br /><br />It’s not that dramatic though. The Swiss people hate trouble and that’s why the action against crime by foreigners. The same action will be taken if the SVP get out of hand. In a world of hectic change, it’s guaranteed that the Swiss will be the last to take extreme action. Why the surprise? Don’t want to sound too negative here but this poster reflects (dare I say) most of Swiss people’s opinions to foreigners and not just the SVP party’s. Of course you won’t find any of them in Zürich and nobody in Switzerland will walk up to me (I’m black & live in Zürich) and say these things to my face. But if you drive out of Zürich into villages and smaller towns, you will notice that racism and the deterioration of good Swiss values due to foreigners is part of everyday conversation. Just like it’s acceptable to have skinheads around at local events…

What really gets under my skin is not the racism, but that the Swiss people have not been informed well enough of an alternative solution to solve integration problems other than the SVP’s infamous strategies. It is believed to deliver results. We all know, the more influence the right-wing parties have, the more it damages the international relation growth in cities like Zürich and Geneva.

It’s not that dramatic though. The Swiss people hate trouble and that’s why the action against crime by foreigners. The same action will be taken if the SVP get out of hand. In a world of hectic change, it’s guaranteed that the Swiss will be the last to take extreme action.

]]> By: Ovi http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2625 Ovi Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:24:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2625 @Patrick<br />Fair enough, but you have to see that the SVP, just like the SP has several internal groups. Many of those are more traditional conservatives and not the rabid reactionaries of the Zürcher wing that seem to dominate the national party at the moment. You're right though that the SVP is several levels worse when it comes to 'provoking' (or as you said, fear-/hate-mongering) ads (the Aarau oder Ankara ads come to mind...).<br />It's also true that the CVP and FDP are centre-right, but since there isn't really a true centre (or even slightly centre-left) party around they're at the moment the only parties I consider voting for, the SP are just too far to the left for my taste. Maybe the liberal greens will be able to fill that void some day....but I fear I'm now really straying from the original topic, sorry :blush: @Patrick
Fair enough, but you have to see that the SVP, just like the SP has several internal groups. Many of those are more traditional conservatives and not the rabid reactionaries of the Zürcher wing that seem to dominate the national party at the moment. You’re right though that the SVP is several levels worse when it comes to ‘provoking’ (or as you said, fear-/hate-mongering) ads (the Aarau oder Ankara ads come to mind…).
It’s also true that the CVP and FDP are centre-right, but since there isn’t really a true centre (or even slightly centre-left) party around they’re at the moment the only parties I consider voting for, the SP are just too far to the left for my taste. Maybe the liberal greens will be able to fill that void some day….but I fear I’m now really straying from the original topic, sorry :blush:

]]> By: Pascal http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2626 Pascal Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:24:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2626 @ Ovi<br /><br />I don't quite agree with your argumentation. Yes it's right that the SP (social-democratic or socialist party) is on the other end of the political spectrum, but that doesn't mean that they are nearly as far to the left as the SVP is to the right. As far as the mentionned poster from the SP goes (which I don't approve of) many members of the party have actually spoken out against it. The SP doesn't normally display such fear-mongering ads; the SVP does it all the time (and you can ad there the word "hate-mongering" too).<br />As far as the political "centre" is concerned, those parties (CVP, FDP) aren't really to the centre but rather right of the centre. They always speak out against the bad style of the SVP but when it comes to vote, they often root with the SVP for fear of loosing voters. That's why I will vote for the SP. @ Ovi

I don’t quite agree with your argumentation. Yes it’s right that the SP (social-democratic or socialist party) is on the other end of the political spectrum, but that doesn’t mean that they are nearly as far to the left as the SVP is to the right. As far as the mentionned poster from the SP goes (which I don’t approve of) many members of the party have actually spoken out against it. The SP doesn’t normally display such fear-mongering ads; the SVP does it all the time (and you can ad there the word “hate-mongering” too).
As far as the political “centre” is concerned, those parties (CVP, FDP) aren’t really to the centre but rather right of the centre. They always speak out against the bad style of the SVP but when it comes to vote, they often root with the SVP for fear of loosing voters. That’s why I will vote for the SP.

]]> By: Ovi http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2627 Ovi Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:01:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2627 well, as everywhere in the western world, politics seem to be radicalizing. And so it's not really a big surprise that here in switzerland the 'wing'-parties to the left and the right are gaining more and more votes, while the moderates lose votes. If you have a look at the election campains the SP fields equally silly ads (just take a look at the one with a plane crashing into a nuclear powerplant).<br /><br />Theoretically, the image of the 'black sheep' isn't racist per se, but of course the SVP was aware of the possible double-entendre of the imagery and explicitly used it to provoke, which it did. Unfortunately, especially the backlash from abroads will probably turn out to be counter-productive due to the old swiss stance 'of not letting them foreigners (UNO, EU) tell us what to do' :(<br /><br />It's really a shame, the concept of 'Sippenhaft' is pretty much opposed to anything Switzerland stands for, but to make this clear the law that's being debated right now does NOT include that. I'm still opposed to it and will vote a clear no when/if it comes to a popular vote, but I just wanted to point that out. Apparently some media seem to mix things up here a bit, it has been mentioned by the SVP, but it's not (yet) part of a bill.<br /><br />To our defense I have to say that a lot of these posters have been painted over, actually all of them along my way to work have...<br /><br />I just hope that this time around the people will flock back to the centrist parties, but that's pretty unrealistic, I'm afraid. Most likely the SP and SVP will be the two parties winning seats. :( well, as everywhere in the western world, politics seem to be radicalizing. And so it’s not really a big surprise that here in switzerland the ‘wing’-parties to the left and the right are gaining more and more votes, while the moderates lose votes. If you have a look at the election campains the SP fields equally silly ads (just take a look at the one with a plane crashing into a nuclear powerplant).

Theoretically, the image of the ‘black sheep’ isn’t racist per se, but of course the SVP was aware of the possible double-entendre of the imagery and explicitly used it to provoke, which it did. Unfortunately, especially the backlash from abroads will probably turn out to be counter-productive due to the old swiss stance ‘of not letting them foreigners (UNO, EU) tell us what to do’ :(

It’s really a shame, the concept of ‘Sippenhaft’ is pretty much opposed to anything Switzerland stands for, but to make this clear the law that’s being debated right now does NOT include that. I’m still opposed to it and will vote a clear no when/if it comes to a popular vote, but I just wanted to point that out. Apparently some media seem to mix things up here a bit, it has been mentioned by the SVP, but it’s not (yet) part of a bill.

To our defense I have to say that a lot of these posters have been painted over, actually all of them along my way to work have…

I just hope that this time around the people will flock back to the centrist parties, but that’s pretty unrealistic, I’m afraid. Most likely the SP and SVP will be the two parties winning seats. :(

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2628 Anonymous Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:34:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2628 @Rashunda<br /><br />>The issue is that foreigners are more prone to be charged with a crime, whereas Swiss folks (whites) are more prone to be let off with a warning.<br /><br />Maybe so. But more so than in other countries? <br /><br />For example: How many percent of the inmates or people receiving capital punishment are black? @Rashunda

>The issue is that foreigners are more prone to be charged with a crime, whereas Swiss folks (whites) are more prone to be let off with a warning.

Maybe so. But more so than in other countries?

For example: How many percent of the inmates or people receiving capital punishment are black?

]]> By: r tramble http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2629 r tramble Sun, 09 Sep 2007 08:29:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2629 @aena and anonymous,<br /><br />Reading your posts make me realize that there's no hope left. <br /><br />At all.<br /><br />The issue is that foreigners are more prone to be charged with a crime, whereas Swiss folks (whites) are more prone to be let off with a warning.<br /><br />If the justice system here was fair and across the board, I wouldn't have that much of an issue. But the justice system plainly not fair.<br /><br />And I've just about freaking had it with folks here saying "I'm not an SVP voter...but". Not all racists are members of the Klan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not equating SVP with Klan membership. I'm just saying that not being a card carrying member doesn't mean a hill of beans. If you think as they do (which it seems you do) you're on the team. @aena and anonymous,

Reading your posts make me realize that there’s no hope left.

At all.

The issue is that foreigners are more prone to be charged with a crime, whereas Swiss folks (whites) are more prone to be let off with a warning.

If the justice system here was fair and across the board, I wouldn’t have that much of an issue. But the justice system plainly not fair.

And I’ve just about freaking had it with folks here saying “I’m not an SVP voter…but”. Not all racists are members of the Klan. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not equating SVP with Klan membership. I’m just saying that not being a card carrying member doesn’t mean a hill of beans. If you think as they do (which it seems you do) you’re on the team.

]]> By: r tramble http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2630 r tramble Sun, 09 Sep 2007 08:19:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2630 Hi there,<br /><br />Well, I left my thoughts on my blog if you wish to read them.<br /><br />http://www.rashundatramble.com/2007/09/08/speaking-out-in-switzerland-a-foreign-concept/ Hi there,

Well, I left my thoughts on my blog if you wish to read them.

http://www.rashundatramble.com/2007/09/08/speaking-out-in-switzerland-a-foreign-concept/

]]> By: hexe http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2631 hexe Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:39:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2631 While I too believe in freedom of speech, there is a point where speech become "offensive" and it only serves to insult and degrade people with no redeeming value. It's like the U.S. Supreme Court's definition of pornograph - you know it when you see it and it should not be tolerated. While I too believe in freedom of speech, there is a point where speech become “offensive” and it only serves to insult and degrade people with no redeeming value. It’s like the U.S. Supreme Court’s definition of pornograph – you know it when you see it and it should not be tolerated.

]]> By: aena http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep.html/comment-page-1#comment-2632 aena Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:15:00 +0000 http://www.zurika.com/2007/09/baa-baa-black-sheep/#comment-2632 anonymous is right, collective punishment is not part of this initiative. <br /><br />The proposed new article states that foreigners, who have effectively been convicted of a serious crime (criminal acts of violence, rape, human trafficking, drug trafficking) should be deported regardless of their residence status (no mention of any family members being deported alongside). <br /><br />They would also be banned from travelling to Switzerland for 5-15 years, depending on the crime, 20 years in the case of repeat offenders.<br /><br />And yes, apparently in German "black sheep" is used a bit differently than in English. In German the "black sheep" are those who don't obey the rules, not simply outsiders.<br /><br />I know that Switzerland and especially the SVP is not as PC as other countries. But I refuse to accept international media, that apparently can't even get the facts straight, calling us "Europe's heart of darkness".<br /><br />(And before you ask, I'm not an SVP-voter and both my parents were immigrants in Switzerland) anonymous is right, collective punishment is not part of this initiative.

The proposed new article states that foreigners, who have effectively been convicted of a serious crime (criminal acts of violence, rape, human trafficking, drug trafficking) should be deported regardless of their residence status (no mention of any family members being deported alongside).

They would also be banned from travelling to Switzerland for 5-15 years, depending on the crime, 20 years in the case of repeat offenders.

And yes, apparently in German “black sheep” is used a bit differently than in English. In German the “black sheep” are those who don’t obey the rules, not simply outsiders.

I know that Switzerland and especially the SVP is not as PC as other countries. But I refuse to accept international media, that apparently can’t even get the facts straight, calling us “Europe’s heart of darkness”.

(And before you ask, I’m not an SVP-voter and both my parents were immigrants in Switzerland)

]]>